On this “Face the Nation with Margaret Brennan” broadcast, moderated by Margaret Brennan:
- Vice President JD Vance
- Sen. Chris Murphy, Democrat of Connecticut
- Rep. Jim Himes, Democrat of Connecticut
- Badr Abdelatty, Egyptian foreign minister
Click here to browse full transcripts from 2025 of “Face the Nation with Margaret Brennan.”
MARGARET BRENNAN: I’m Margaret Brennan in Washington.
President Trump prepares to head to Israel, as the deadline to release the remaining 48 hostages nears. Meanwhile, some federal employees will miss paychecks. Others face pink slips, as the government shutdown drags on. We will talk to Vice President J.D. Vance.
Hopeful Gazans have begun the trek back to their homes, as the cease-fire between Israel and Hamas continues to hold. But the rebuilding and recovery ahead is daunting and still very much unsettled. President Trump will join special envoy Steve Witkoff and son-in-law Jared Kushner in the region as peace talks continue.
Democrats Chris Murphy and Jim Himes will be here, in addition to the vice president. And we will hear from a key player in the region on the next part of the peace process.
With the shutdown now in its 12th day, more federal facilities are facing closure, paychecks are on the verge of being missed, and the Trump administration has begun sending reduction in force notices to some federal employees.
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DONALD TRUMP (President of the United States): Well, these are largely people that the Democrats want. Many of them will be fired.
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MARGARET BRENNAN: It’s all just ahead on Face the Nation.
Good morning, and welcome to Face the Nation.
We begin today with Vice President J.D. Vance, who joins us from Cincinnati this morning.
Good morning to you, Mr. Vice President.
J.D. VANCE (Vice President of the United States): Good morning, Margaret. Thanks for having me.
MARGARET BRENNAN: We are getting very close to that 72-hour deadline for the hostage release. I think the world is holding its breath here. Is the administration seeing signs that Hamas and Israel are complying with everything they need to and that this will go ahead?
VICE PRESIDENT J.D. VANCE: Yes, Margaret, so knock on wood, but we feel very confident the hostages will be released, and that the president is actually traveling to the Middle East likely this evening in order to meet them and greet them in person.
It’s a big day for their families, but I think, more importantly, it’s a big day for the entire world. Now, the president of the United States said to his entire diplomatic team, especially Marco Rubio, Steve Witkoff and Jared Kushner, to go and get a deal done, to stop the war in Gaza, to begin to rebuild Gaza so the population could live there in peace and prosperity, to actually eliminate the threat of terrorism to our friends in Israel – which is very, very important, and also to bring the hostages home alive.
It was a very tall task. He pursued a very nontraditional diplomacy with people who were not 40-year diplomats, but people who brought a fresh perspective to it. And, of course, the president was criticized for it. The diplomatic team was criticized for it.
But I think that, because he chose a different pathway, he didn’t just do what everybody else in the past had done, we are now on the cusp of a sustainable peace in the Middle East. It’s a great moment.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Those are some very ambitious plans in phase two in particular of this deal.
Let me ask you about some of the details, because the administration has pledged about 200 U.S. troops from Central Command to be part of implementing this deal. They’re not going to be in Gaza, but how long will they be involved here?
And, more broadly, is the Trump administration fully committed to keeping the pressure on? Because those things you just mentioned aren’t going to happen overnight in terms of dismantling Hamas and building towards a stable Gaza.
VICE PRESIDENT J.D. VANCE: You’re exactly right, Margaret.
It is going to take consistent leverage and consistent pressure from the president of the United States on down. I know the president is very committed to doing that.
But you asked about the 200 troops from Central Command. I think you put it accurately. These are not troops who are going to be put in Gaza, but they’re troops who are already at Central Command. They’ve been at that base for many, many years, and they’re going to help monitor and mediate this peace. Inevitably, there are going to be conflicts here.
There are going to be things that the people in Gaza disagree with Israel about, that the Israelis disagree with the Gulf Arab states about. We see our role really as mediating some of those disputes and ensuring that the pressure stays on everybody to achieve a durable and lasting peace.
One of the underreported elements of this deal, Margaret, is that the president convinced the entire Muslim world really, both the Gulf Arab states, but as far in Southeast Asia as Indonesia, to really step up and provide ground troops so that Gaza could be secured in safety.
And that actually makes it possible to rebuild. It makes it possible to dismantle those terrorist networks. It makes it possible to ensure that lasting peace that all of us care so much about. So we think that the Arab countries, the Muslim-majority countries, are going to step up in a big way with troops on the ground.
We’re going to continue to play our mediation role. And I think that’s a very, very good place for all of us to be. It’s been successful thus far, and, of course, we’re going to work to make it as successful all the way through as we can.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Big picture, though, when it comes to American security, you said back in July that you’d seen what you called heartbreaking images of little kids who are clearly starving to death in Gaza and that – quote – “Israel’s got to do more to let that aid in.”
Are you concerned that even if, God willing, this war ends, America’s security has been endangered by this perception that America has been OK with Israel and in support of it, despite conduct that clearly you and the president didn’t agree with?
VICE PRESIDENT J.D. VANCE: Well, look, as the president said, you have to remember, the war started because of a brutal terrorist attack on Israeli soil, and we’ve been laser-focused on eliminating the terrorist threat to the Israelis, while also ensuring that the innocent people in Gaza get the necessary humanitarian aid.
That’s a difficult balance to strike. But I think if you look at the dancing in the street in Gaza, if you look at the way that the Gulf Arab states, really the entire Muslim world, but also you look at how the Israelis responded, they were cheering at the mention of President Trump’s name yesterday in a massive rally in Israel, this is one of those peace deals where Muslims and Jews and Christians all seem unified that it’s a really good thing for the world.
It’s a really good thing for humanity, and it happened because of President Trump’s leadership. So I actually think this peace deal will make us safer. I’m sure they’re going to be some hard feelings from the last couple of years of war. There always are. But if we can build a sustainable peace, Margaret, I am 100 percent sure Americans will be safer because of it.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Let me ask you about what’s happening here at home, or perhaps not happening, when it comes to negotiations to reopen the government.
There were more than 4,000 layoff notices, called RIFs, or reduction in force, announcements, that went out Friday to workers across seven different agencies, including Treasury and Health and Human Services. Take a listen to how the president described this.
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DONALD TRUMP (President of the United States): We’ll be cutting some very popular Democrat programs that aren’t popular with Republicans, frankly, because that’s the way it works. They wanted to do this, so we’ll give them a little taste of their own medicine.
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MARGARET BRENNAN: How are you deciding who gets laid off?
VICE PRESIDENT J.D. VANCE: Well, the main thing that we’re focused on, Margaret, is ensuring essential services remain open.
And, obviously, in a government shutdown, we have limited funds to work with, because the appropriations that keep the government running have not been made. That’s thanks to Chuck Schumer and the Democrats. So we’re trying to do everything that we can to ensure that low-income women and children get the food services that they need.
We’re trying to make sure that we pay our troops, because that matters for national security. We also want our people to get their paychecks. That’s where we’ve been focused. And, unfortunately, what that does mean Margaret is that some federal bureaucrats are going to have to get laid off. This is not a situation that we’re excited about.
We want the government to reopen, but Chuck Schumer and the Democrats decided to shut down the government, and we have to deal with the consequences in the administration, so that’s what we’re doing.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Well, these aren’t furloughs. These are notifications of being laid off, of losing their jobs. That’s why it’s a little different this time.
And specifically when it comes to what’s happening within the health sector, CBS did confirm on Saturday that the Trump administration went and rescinded some of the layoffs of hundreds of CDC scientists who were mistakenly laid off on Friday, and then told Saturday that’s not the case.
But some of them were involved with the federal measles response. Some of them were involved with the response on Ebola. How does a mistake like this happen? Did the White House even talk to the CDC?
VICE PRESIDENT J.D. VANCE: Well, so – so two – two responses to that, Margaret.
First of all, I want to assure the American people that the frontline health care workers, the people who monitor measles, Ebola and other infectious diseases, those people are still on the job, and we’re trying very hard to figure out how to ensure those people get a paycheck, of course, because we want them to be happy and healthy. We want them to be able to do their jobs well.
But the second point, Margaret, is, the government shutdown inevitably leads to some chaos. We are figuring out how to take money from some areas and give it to other areas. That chaos is because Schumer and the far left Democrats shut down the government.
We have to remember, Margaret, that the vast majority of Republicans and – and, to their great credit, a number of moderate Democrats have consistently voted to reopen the government. But if Chuck Schumer and the far left Senate Democrats are going to shut down the government, that is going to lead to some chaos.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes.
VICE PRESIDENT J.D. VANCE: So, you ask, how does this mistake happen? It happened because Chuck Schumer shut down the government, and we’re trying to make sure that essential services still function in the face of that shutdown.
MARGARET BRENNAN: But that was a White House decision to lay off these individuals. You heard the president talking about that. That – that wasn’t Chuck Schumer’s decision. I understand your broader point on the negotiations, but the layoffs came from the president and the White House.
VICE PRESIDENT J.D. VANCE: But my point is, Margaret, that we have to do layoffs because we have to preserve necessary resources to do the most critical things that the government does.
And, in that phase, you’re going to have some chaos. You’re going to lay off people, frankly, Margaret, that the White House doesn’t want to lay off. We would like to reopen the government and ensure the essential – essential services stay on.
But, unfortunately, in an environment where we’re dealing with limited resources, where the government is shut down, we’ve got to move some things around. And in that moving things around, there is some chaos, there is some unpredictability, but we’re trying to do everything that we can with the – the hand of cards that Chuck Schumer and the Democrats have dealt us.
That’s our solemn promise, and that’s our duty to the American people, but there’s going to be chaos. That’s why we want to open the government. That’s why we want the Democrats to accept that the government should be open.
MARGARET BRENNAN: But are you confident that these job cuts are legal, that these reductions in force during a shutdown are going to withstand legal scrutiny, given that some unions are saying this is a violation of the Antideficiency Act?
VICE PRESIDENT J.D. VANCE: Well, we are confident, Margaret.
Of course, we always follow the law, and we always follow court cases, and we think that we have the authority to do what we need to do. I’m sure that some people will sue, and that will get figured out in court. But the reality is, we have to remember, why are we in this situation, Margaret?
All these conversations about whether it’s a temporary layoff or a permanent layoff, we are dealing with a terrible, chaotic situation because Chuck Schumer and a few far left Democrats decided to shut down the government.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes.
VICE PRESIDENT J.D. VANCE: If they just joined with the moderate Democrats and the vast majority of Republicans, we can open up the government, and all of these conversations will no longer be necessary.
MARGARET BRENNAN: When I pressed Leader Schumer on this program just last Sunday about this, about reopening the government, he said it’s going to take getting everyone in the same room with the president of the United States.
Only the five people, including the president, he said, can solve it. Why doesn’t the president insist that lawmakers come back to Washington, sit with him and talk this through?
VICE PRESIDENT J.D. VANCE: Well, as Chuck Schumer said, it’s not all lawmakers. It’s the Senate leadership that really is driving the shutdown. The House has already passed a bill to reopen the government. It’s the Senate and, again, it’s a far left sort of contingent of Senate Democrats who are keeping the government shut down.
MARGARET BRENNAN: But the president says he’s a dealmaker. Why doesn’t he force a deal here? Why doesn’t he tell Republicans, like the speaker, get your lawmakers back here, come into my office, let’s hammer this thing out?
VICE PRESIDENT J.D. VANCE: Margaret, it’s a totally fair question, and the answer is, because this isn’t a dealmaking. This isn’t a negotiation. This is hostage-taking.
Chuck Schumer has not said to us, this is what we need. He said that, unless you give us what we need, we’re going to shut down the government. That is a totally different thing. If Chuck Schumer wants to come into the Oval Office or come to my house, he is welcome to talk about how to fix health care policy for Americans.
Of course we want to lower insurance premiums. We want to make sure that the skyrocketing health care costs of the Biden administration start to level off and hopefully come down. That’s one conversation. But you don’t come into the Oval Office and say, unless you, the president of the United States, give us everything that I want, I’m going to shut down the government. I’m going to deny low-income women and children their food benefits. I’m not going to pay the troops.
That is what Chuck Schumer has put us in the situation of doing. We don’t negotiate with a person who has taken the entire federal government hostage over a health care policy dispute. And I think that basic principle – you saw Barack Obama say this to Ted Cruz and a number of Republicans.
We want to talk about health care policy, but we’re not going to shut down the government over this. That’s all that Donald Trump is now saying to Chuck Schumer and the far left Democrats. We are not going to negotiate over opening the government. We’ll negotiate on health care policy, but only once you do your job and open up the people’s government.
MARGARET BRENNAN: OK, just a quick follow there, though. What is your vision for that health care policy? Do you want these tax credits to fade out over time, extend them and then fade them out? Are you open to making them permanent?
VICE PRESIDENT J.D. VANCE: Well, the tax credits go to some people deservedly. And we think the tax credits actually go to a lot of waste and fraud within the insurance industry. So we want to make sure that the tax credits go to the people who need them.
We also think that Obamacare gave the health insurance industry a lot of ridiculous regulations that, if we cut out, we could give people access to better health care at a lower cost. That’s what we’re working on. And, again, I think there’s a lot of agreement, actually, Margaret.
That’s the crazy thing about this. There’s a lot of willingness to negotiate, a lot of willingness to compromise from both the moderate Democrats and certainly from the White House. But if the far left Democrats led by Chuck Schumer are going to shut down the government and refuse to open up the government unless they get everything they want, that’s not a negotiation. That’s a hostage-taking, and we’re not going to reward that kind of behavior from Washington, D.C.
MARGARET BRENNAN: All right, Mr. Vice President, thank you for your time this morning.
Face the Nation will be back in one minute. Stay with us.
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MARGARET BRENNAN: We turn now to the foreign minister of Egypt, Dr. Badr Abdelatty. And he joins U.S. this morning from Cairo.
Welcome to Face the Nation.
DR. BADR ABDELATTY (Egyptian Minister of Foreign Affairs): Good to be with you, Margaret. Thank you so much for hosting me.
MARGARET BRENNAN: So, President Trump is headed to Egypt. I know he will be meeting with President El-Sisi tomorrow in Sharm el-Sheikh to discuss this agreement about Gaza.
But everything seems dependent on this hostage release and the conclusion of phase one. From what you know and hear from Hamas, will those hostages be released in the next 24 hours?
FOREIGN MINISTER DR. BADR ABDELATTY: Well, we are confident that the first phase of the Trump peace plan will be implemented, will be honored by all parts concerns.
And we are moving ahead. We are very hopeful that the first phase will be completed in all honesty from the two parties. And we are in full contact with the Palestinians, with the Hamas, because it’s all about, of course, releasing the hostages and, for Israel, releasing some of the Palestinian detainees, returning back some – I mean, the bodies of the – those who passed away.
But that will take time to collect the remains, of course, and to allow the flow of all humanitarian assistance to Gaza without impediments in order to deal with current famine and starvation in Gaza.
MARGARET BRENNAN: So, the vice president, who you just heard, said that President Trump has convinced a number of countries to provide ground troops to go into Gaza. Will Egypt be sending ground troops into Gaza?
FOREIGN MINISTER DR. BADR ABDELATTY: Well, part of the deal is, of course, the issue of security arrangement. And we are working on different levels.
First of all, there are some Palestinians in Gaza. They will be trained and be deployed in Gaza. We are in the process now, as we speak, providing training and coordination with Jordan to train up to 5,000 Palestinians to be deployed in Gaza as well.
Deployment of international force is on the table. We are supporting this idea, of course. And there are some countries expressed their readiness to deploy forces to contribute with the forces on the ground. And we have to work now on going to the Security Council, of course, to endorse the proposal, as well as defining…
MARGARET BRENNAN: So…
FOREIGN MINISTER DR. BADR ABDELATTY: … the main mandate of these troops on the ground.
MARGARET BRENNAN: But the leader of Indonesia is already committed to 20,000 troops. Is Egypt going to commit troops? Do you have a number?
FOREIGN MINISTER DR. BADR ABDELATTY: We are. We are going to support and to commit troops within specific parameters.
MARGARET BRENNAN: OK.
FOREIGN MINISTER DR. BADR ABDELATTY: As I mentioned, we must have a mandate by the Security Council to endorse it and, of course, to specify the mission of the troops on the ground, which will be peacekeeping, and how to provide training to the Palestinian policemen in order to do their job, to have law enforcement on the ground, and, of course, to define the whole mission…
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes.
FOREIGN MINISTER DR. BADR ABDELATTY: … and for how long, because it will be a transitional one, in order to help the Palestinians to assume their full responsibilities and to – until we have the realization of the Palestinian state on the ground.
MARGARET BRENNAN: You are committing there to a Palestinian state. The president of the United States has given a bit more vague language.
And when I pressed the secretary of state on this point just last weekend, he said this is far off in the future. How long do you think it’s going to take before Palestinians are ruling Gaza and that we will see a state?
FOREIGN MINISTER DR. BADR ABDELATTY: Well, what’s very urgent now is, of course, ending this war on the innocent civilians in Gaza, provide as much as – food and medicine to the people there.
And then we have to move forward with regard to the early recovery and the reconstructions of Gaza, and, of course, talking about issues related to the governance and the security arrangement in Gaza.
And, of course, from our point of view, the endgame, the final comprehensive solution will be the realization of the Palestinian state, because, without that, we are confident through – we have to draw lessons from the past that, without solving the Palestinian cause, which is the core of the conflict in the region, without respecting the legitimate aspirations…
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes.
FOREIGN MINISTER DR. BADR ABDELATTY: … of the Palestinians to have their own statehood, there is no peace and stability in the region.
And the Trump peace plan, it refers to the statehood. And, of course, 144 countries voted in favor of…
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes.
FOREIGN MINISTER DR. BADR ABDELATTY: … the two-state solution in New York recently.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Right.
FOREIGN MINISTER DR. BADR ABDELATTY: So, this is the game in town.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Well, it – again, that’s going to seemingly take a lot of time.
I want to go back to the question of security, because it is essential for rebuilding, and share with you some of what the United Nations estimates here. The U.N. says 92 percent of housing units in Gaza are destroyed or damaged. Almost 92 percent of schools will require full reconstruction or rehab; 77 percent of the total road network has been damaged; 86 percent of total cropland is destroyed.
How much is this going to cost, and where is this money coming from?
FOREIGN MINISTER DR. BADR ABDELATTY: Well, first of all, we have full confidence on the leadership of President Trump and his vision for peace.
He’s the only person who is capable to end the war and to open a new chapter in the Middle East, a chapter of hope, of prosperity and peace for all peoples, including, of course, the Israeli people, the Palestinians and all peoples in our region. So we are very appreciative, who are commending his leadership, and we are in full support of his vision and his leadership.
This is one.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Well…
FOREIGN MINISTER DR. BADR ABDELATTY: Number two, we are working very hard now with regard to convening an international conference in cooperation between Egypt and the United States, as well as with a lot of partners, including Germany, European Union, France…
MARGARET BRENNAN: Right.
FOREIGN MINISTER DR. BADR ABDELATTY: … Italy, Spain, Qatar, Gulf Cooperation Council, Japan. Everybody is standing ready to participate in this conference for the reconstruction and redevelopment of Gaza.
It will be a merge between the Arab and Islamic plan for the reconstruction and the Trump peace plan.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes. OK.
FOREIGN MINISTER DR. BADR ABDELATTY: So, I met today with…
MARGARET BRENNAN: Well…
FOREIGN MINISTER DR. BADR ABDELATTY: … the deputy secretary-general for humanitarian affairs of the United Nations, Tom Fletcher.
MARGARET BRENNAN: OK.
FOREIGN MINISTER DR. BADR ABDELATTY: And we are working very hard now for having a final assessment report on the…
MARGARET BRENNAN: OK. I’m going to…
FOREIGN MINISTER DR. BADR ABDELATTY: Hello?
MARGARET BRENNAN: Well, we will look – we will look for that number to be released in the future.
Mr. Foreign Minister, I have to leave it there for now. Good luck with the conference.
We will be right back.
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MARGARET BRENNAN: Be sure to tune in tomorrow to our CBS News coverage of the Israel hostage release. CBS Mornings co-host Tony Dokoupil will report live from Israel.
(ANNOUNCEMENTS)
MARGARET BRENNAN: And welcome back to “FACE THE NATION.”
There are 200 U.S. troops going to Israel to help coordinate the Israel/Hamas ceasefire. They’ve begun arriving ahead of tomorrow’s expected hostage release. Our Debora Patta reports now from east Jerusalem.
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DEBORA PATTA (voice over): More than 400,000 Israelis crammed into Hostage Square last night.
STEVE WITKOFF (U.S. Special Envoy to the Middle East): To the hostages themselves, our brothers and sisters, you are coming home.
DEBORA PATTA (voice over): A hero’s welcome from Middle East Envoy Steve Witkoff, flanked by President Trump’s son-in-law Jared Kushner.
STEVE WITKOFF: To Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu –
CROWD: Boo.
STEVE WITKOFF: But Witkoff was never going to convince a crowd, who have lived through heartbreak, despair, and rage, and accused Prime Minister Netanyahu of abandoning hostages in Gaza.
Retired General Israel Zif (ph), who rushed to save lives during the October 7 Hamas attack, believes this deal could have been sealed over a year ago.
GENERAL ISRAEL ZIF (ph), (Retired): It’s late. The costs were, well, very high, internally and externally. I think that politically the Israel lost their name (ph) in the war because we went maybe too far in Gaza. I think the attack in Doha (ph) was also, you know, one step too much. But, in the end, it brought at least the President Trump to made the right decision to stop the war.
DEBORA PATTA (voice over): The ceasefire is still holding. Forty=eight hostages, living and dead, will be exchanged for 250 Palestinian prisoners serving life sentences and 1,700 detained since October, 2023. The deadline is Monday. As Israeli troops withdrew to an agreed upon line within Gaza, hundreds of thousands of Palestinians started the long walk home. Almost the entire population has been displaced.
MAN: I mean we enjoy the moment right now, and – and personally I’m going home despite the fact that it may be a pile of rubbish (ph).
DEBORA PATTA (voice over): Even though homes, unrecognizable for so many, Palestinians are desperate t reclaim memories of life before the war.
“I will just live in a tent near the rubble of my home,” said Oma Hamid Somwar (ph), “until I can find a solution.”
The pain of loss is everywhere. More than 67,000 people have been killed, according to Gaza’s health ministry. And minds, too, have been shattered by this war. Fourteen-year-old Kareem (ph) was so traumatized, he couldn’t remember where he once lived.
(END VT)
DEBORA PATTA (on camera): Now, UNICEF Says they have never known a place where every single child needs psychological support.
Margaret.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Deb, that is just hard to hear. For those who are raising their hopes of what might be happening in the next 24 hours, what have you learned about how this release will happen?
DEBORA PATTA: Margaret, Israeli officials say they expect the 20 living hostages to all be released early tomorrow morning. They’ll be driven to an Israeli military base and reunited with their families before being taken to hospital.
The Red Cross will also hand over all the bodies that can be located of loved ones killed in captivity. And in exchange, Palestinian prisoners will be waiting in buses. They will only be released once the hostages have crossed over into Israel.
And now this might just be the easiest part, because then talks will take place around thornier issues like Hamas disarmament and governance of a post-war Gaza.
And, of course, we know, President Trump arrives in Israel tomorrow where he’ll be met by Prime Minister Netanyahu. And then he addresses the Knesset, Israel’s parliament.
Margaret.
MARGARET BRENNAN: And – and as you said, then the hard work begins.
Deb Patta, on the ground for us, thank you.
And we’re joined now here in studio by Connecticut Democrat Senator Chris Murphy.
Thank you for being with us.
SENATOR CHRIS MURPHY (D-CT): Of course.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Just on this topic. I know you have a lot of differences with the president, but on this, is this a clear win?
SENATOR CHRIS MURPHY: Well, it’s really important that we have a ceasefire. It’s important that these hostages are coming home. And I congratulate the negotiators on getting this done. There’s – there’s no politics about this moment, as you’re going to see some very tearful reunions tomorrow, hopefully, as these hostages are released.
But you watch those devastating images of what Gaza looks like today, and it’s both heartbreaking and infuriating that this deal has been on the table for over a year, and it’s been Benjamin Netanyahu, because of his political considerations, domestically, trying to protect himself, has frustrated the ability to find peace and to get the hostages home far before today.
So, again, this will be a good week. But as you have reported, there are big issues to come. Israel is not fully pulling out of Gaza. There’s no clear path forward on what the security and governance force is going to look like inside that country. There’s certainly a risk of hostilities begin again if we don’t build on this first phase and come to some decisions about what Gaza looks like heading into next year.
MARGARET BRENNAN: And President Biden wasn’t willing to put this kind of pressure on Benjamin Netanyahu. President Trump has. Your point is, that’s got to be sustained pressure to see this all the way through. Am I understanding you?
SENATOR CHRIS MURPHY: Yes. Yes.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes.
SENATOR CHRIS MURPHY: I mean, listen, I think the barrier here has been Netanyahu. And Netanyahu is only going to move if he thinks that his relationship with the United States is at risk. And so clearly, the pressure is going to have to continue to be strong and constant.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Now, let me ask you about the other diplomacy that needs to happen just up the street, frankly. You have called on Democrats to stiffen their spines, to stand up to the president of the United States. At what point, though, does this pain become too much in terms of the cost of the shutdown, and when are Democrats going to show some flexibility on this?
SENATOR CHRIS MURPHY: Well, I listened to the vice president, and he’s just not living in reality. The fact –
MARGARET BRENNAN: What do you mean?
SENATOR CHRIS MURPHY: Well, because there’s no negotiations happening right now because Republicans are boycotting those negotiations. They are boycotting negotiations to reopen the government because they are desperate to raise premiums on people on this country by 75 percent in order to finance their tax cut for the wealthy. Their only priority is protecting the billionaire class and the corporate class.
The other reason the House of Representatives isn’t in town right now trying to reopen the government, because they are about to have enough votes to pass a resolution mandating the release of the Epstein files.
So, J.D. Vance and Donald Trump’s number one priority is protecting billionaires, protecting corporations, and raising premiums, raising healthcare costs by 75 percent on American citizens.
So, yes, I think that Democrats should say, if you want our votes for a budget, it can’t be a corrupt budget. It can’t be a budget that is going to devastate the lives of middle class families in this country in order to protect and reward billionaires. That’s a pretty reasonable request.
MARGARET BRENNAN: You’re talking about the premiums that will increase an average of about $1,000, I believe, for those who are using some of these health care programs through the government?
SENATOR CHRIS MURPHY: Well, that’s the average. But in Connecticut, some families will see a $25,000 increase in premiums. And again, in order to afford a $270,000 tax cut for the richest families in this country.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Because also it wasn’t dealt with earlier when Democrats were in leadership here.
But you – but you did hear the vice president say, when it came to healthcare, “the administration is open to a discussion. We want to lower insurance premiums.” That was a quote there. Did you hear any chance of an opening?
SENATOR CHRIS MURPHY: I mean, there are no negotiations happening, in large part because the House of Representatives isn’t even here.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Right.
SENATOR CHRIS MURPHY: They’ve been on an unprecedented five-week recess because they do not want to risk their billionaire tax cut. And they also don’t want to talk about the president’s lawlessness. I mean, that’s the other thing that we have to talk about in this budget. If we’re going to fund this administration, we need to fund an administration that is paying attention to a law.
I would be a sucker, Margaret, to vote for a budget that allows the president to then go and spend money only in states that are run by Republicans and spend no money in states that are run by Democrats.
MARGARET BRENNAN: But this is just the seven-week deal that we’re talking about at this point. The – the short-term funding.
SENATOR CHRIS MURPHY: Correct. The long – right, the long-term budget that we pass –
MARGARET BRENNAN: Right.
SENATOR CHRIS MURPHY: Ultimately has to require that the president not engage in mass-scale corruption. But a short-term agreement, you know, certainly is not going to fix all of the problems that exist right now in the way the president is running the country.
MARGARET BRENNAN: But you have been critical in the past of the tactic of choosing to shut down the government. You were in 2018. You were back in 2013, when it was a discussion over healthcare. This is what you said in 2018.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SENATOR CHRIS MURPHY: The future of the American healthcare system was a legitimate public policy issue, as is the security of our borders. But we shouldn’t be having the discussion amidst a government shutdown and trying to use our nation’s security and all of these federal workers and the work that they do as hostages.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MARGARET BRENNAN: Aren’t you doing today exactly what you were criticizing then?
SENATOR CHRIS MURPHY: No. That was a fight over sort of the long-term structure of the American healthcare system. This is an emergency. In about a month, premiums are going to go up by people by 75 percent. And we have to make a decision of whether this budget is going to allow for that happen – to happen or to stop it.
What is happening in Chicago right now is an emergency. What is happening at the FCC as they try to shut down free speech in this country is an emergency. So, we have a responsibility in this upcoming budget to prevent disaster for families whose premiums are going to – about to go up, and to address the destruction of our democracy and the rule of law that’s happening all over this country. Those are urgent matters.
MARGARET BRENNAN: But you do not – you do not trust that if you vote to open the government and then have a separate conversation about healthcare, that there will be any follow-through?
SENATOR CHRIS MURPHY: Absolutely not.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Because that is what the vice president was arguing here, that it’s like, Democrats aren’t even saying what it is they want to negotiate over.
SENATOR CHRIS MURPHY: No, you – you cannot trust this administration. And I think it’s important to remember that we didn’t have a shutdown when Joe Biden was president. And the reason is, because they didn’t play the kind of games that Republicans are playing. Joe Biden and Democrats, when we were in charge of the Senate, negotiated with Republicans and avoided shutdowns. This shutdown is happening because Republicans are desperate to protect their billionaire tax cut. And all we are asking – we’re not asking to fix the entire American health care system –
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes.
SENATOR CHRIS MURPHY: We’re just simply saying, don’t make things worse by raising premiums by people, in some cases by $25,000 a year.
MARGARET BRENNAN: But the minority leader gave an interview to “Punchbowl” this week. I mean, there is just also the bare bones politics of this. And in that interview he said, “Every day this goes on, every day gets better for us.” The speaker of the House said that was a callous statement.
SENATOR CHRIS MURPHY: Well, they’re – they’re sort of desperately trying to spin what Democrats are saying.
Listen, our priority is the American people. And, yes, it is true, as every day –
MARGARET BRENNAN: But you’ve been critical of Schumer in the past. Back in March, you were saying, we’ve got to stand up and do something. Is this about the tactic of just saying, hey, we’re standing up?
SENATOR CHRIS MURPHY: No. As every day goes on there are more Republicans that are breaking with J.D. Vance and President Trump in saying, yes, we should be willing to sit down and talk about the health care crisis that is about to visit this country. There are more Republicans that are breaking with the president’s regime of censorship. So, as every day goes on, there are more Republicans that are willing to stand up and protect the American people, to try to stop the president’s destruction of democracy, and hopefully at some point there will be enough Republicans to join us and try to protect people’s pocketbooks, which are about to be destroyed – their economic livelihoods are about to be destroyed by these enormous increase in health care costs.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Well, but, in the meantime, there’s also the not – not getting a paycheck problem for some of these (INAUDIBLE).
SENATOR CHRIS MURPHY: Where is the House of Representatives, Margaret? They’re on vacation. The only way you can solve a shutdown is to have two parties that are in Washington negotiating. This is pretty simple. Republicans are boycotting negotiations. They’re in the witness protection program all over the country, refusing to even show up for work. If they’re serious about sitting down to reopen the government, they would be in Washington, rather than spread out all over the country.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Senator Murphy, thank you for your time.
SENATOR CHRIS MURPHY: Appreciate it.
MARGARET BRENNAN: We’ll be right back.
(ANNOUNCEMENTS)
MARGARET BRENNAN: And we’re joined now by Connecticut Congressman Jim Himes. He is the top Democrat on the Intelligence Committee.
Good to have you here.
You are the House lawmaker in town. But – but I want to talk to you about your intelligence portfolio.
“The Financial Times” is reporting right now that the United States is helping Ukraine to target Russian oil installations. In other words, hitting Russia right in that pocketbook.
What can you say in regard to how the Trump administration is changing its policy? Are they truly now standing up to Vladimir Putin?
REPRESENTATIVE JIM HIMES (D-CT): Yes, not really, right? We’ve heard now for months that we’re two weeks away, I think that’s the president’s terminology he used several times now over many months from really cracking down on Russia. And, of course, you know, there are bipartisan bills in the Congress right now which would impose very severe sanctions on the Russians that would do a lot to stop the export of their oil, which, of course, is the fuel that drives their war machine, the dollars that drive their war machine. Those have not been moved forward by the White House. So, it’s hard to say that President Trump is doing anything other than what he’s done forever when he was president, which is trying to sort of have it – have it both ways.
Now, I will say, and I can’t get into particular attacks or particular authorities that the government has, but these attacks on the refineries have had the effect of reducing Russia’s ability to produce gasoline and other stuff almost by 20 percent. That really, really hurts the Russians. And I will tell you, again without being specific, that I wish the president would be much more aggressive with respect to turning off those taps and with respect to arming the Ukrainians.
But he hasn’t taken any meaningful step back – steps back from the Biden administration. So, we’ve at least got that.
MARGARET BRENNAN: So, it’s not so much that he’s doing more, it’s that perhaps he’s freeing up more to be done by the Ukrainian military, not putting the same restrictions on them that he had been? Is that fair to say?
REPRESENTATIVE JIM HIMES: Well, again, I don’t want to get – don’t want to get specific with respect to authorities.
MARGARET BRENNAN: OK.
REPRESENTATIVE JIM HIMES: But, you know, his rhetoric has always been skeptical of the Ukrainians, and bizarrely friendly to Vladimir Putin. I’m telling you that his actions to date have been insufficient. By the way, just as Biden’s actions were insufficient. But they haven’t been consistent with his very skeptical rhetoric. I haven’t noticed a dramatic change, pull back, if you will, from the Biden administration with respect to our assistance o the Ukrainians.
MARGARET BRENNAN: I ask you because Zelenskyy and Trump spoke twice in the past 48 hours, which is notable.
Venezuela, there are close to – the numbers we’ve seen are like 6,000 or so service people in the southern command region of operations. There have been four U.S. strikes on vessels. The U.S. says 21 people killed. You have been asking for legal justification from the administration to explain their actions. And you did it along with the head of Foreign Affairs, Armed Services, Judiciary, and Homeland Security. Can you, in any way, compel more information sharing so the U.S. knows what is being done?
REPRESENTATIVE JIM HIMES: Yes, I mean –
MARGARET BRENNAN: (INAUDIBLE) public (ph), I should say.
REPRESENTATIVE JIM HIMES: One of the many troubling aspects about these lethal attacks in the Caribbean against supposedly drug dealing boats, now, we don’t know that because, unlike our counterterrorism programs, the Congress is not being told who are on these boats, how they were identified, what the intelligence was. Totally different thing.
Congress is being told nothing on this. And that’s OK, apparently, with the Republican majorities in the House and the Senate. It’s not OK with me.
I’m going to leave a little bit of a crack in the door here because, again, the White House has not shared what they believe their legal justification is. They did put out a memo. I will tell you that based on what I know now and the reading of that memo, these are illegal killings. They are illegal killings because the notion that the United States – and this is what the administration says is their justification, is involved in an armed conflict with any drug dealers, Venezuelan drug dealers, is ludicrous. It wouldn’t stand up in a single court of law. It’s what –
MARGARET BRENNAN: They say they’ve designated them as terrorists, therefore they can use those (INAUDIBLE).
REPRESENTATIVE JIM HIMES: It doesn’t matter. It doesn’t matter. There’s lots of people who have been designated terrorists. That does not automatically give the authority to take lethal action.
So, their legal justifications are laughable. And what – and again, unless they want to share more than what they’ve shared with me, these are illegal killings. And what – what amazes me about that is that the president, of course, thanks to this very compliant Supreme Court, has been given absolute immunity. But what about the secretary of defense? What about the deputy – what about everybody else in that chain of command, right on down to the guy who’s pulling a trigger that results in the deaths of people without clear, legal authority, what about them?
Test me on this. It wouldn’t surprise me if in the next couple of years there are presidential pardons offered to that entire chain of command because it is not at all clear – well, it is getting increasingly clear that these are – that these are illegal killings.
Setting aside the law for a second, Margaret.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes.
REPRESENTATIVE JIM HIMES: You know, I don’t know this because they’re not telling Congress anything, but the press has all sorts of rumors that the first attack was on a boat that had turned around and was fleeing. Even if this were a legitimate, military action, which it’s not because the Congress hasn’t approved it, you know, firing on a fleeing enemy would be a violation on our laws of armed conflict. My Republican friends are saying, but these are terrible people doing terrible things. OK, I don’t disagree with you on that, but are we now in the business of killing people who are doing bad things without authority?
MARGARET BRENNAN: Do you – are you saying that these were not lawful orders?
REPRESENTATIVE JIM HIMES: Again –
MARGARET BRENNAN: That, in fact, the military was carrying – because what we constantly hear from our military leaders is, do not worry, our United States military is going to be reliant on the Constitution and only carry out lawful orders. Are you saying that these members of the military, who were the trigger pullers, did something else?
REPRESENTATIVE JIM HIMES: I am saying that to all appearances, these are illegal killings. And you can get a thousand different lawyers of both parties on this show to tell you that at best the legal authorities are questionable.
So, I am fascinated by why the chain of command is so confident that the lethal activities they’re taking are legal.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes.
REPRESENTATIVE JIM HIMES: They don’t look that way to me. And this is a big deal, right? I mean, I understand that right now we’re in a very polarizing environment, so it’s going to be very hard for a Republican colleague of mine to make the statements that I have just made.
But the worm (ph) turns, Margaret. You know, in 1968, we prosecuted – convicted of murder a lieutenant. Lieutenant Cali (ph), because he and his unit killed probably hundreds of people in Meli (ph), in Vietnam, and there were prosecutions after that. So, I’m a little fascinated about why that chain of command is so comfortable undertaking killings just because the Trump administration says, oh, it’s OK. Not an administration that is known for their adherence to the law or to the Constitution.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes. Well, that is a huge topic, and I want to continue covering that with you. But I need to ask you as well about the shutdown and the cost in your home state.
We saw from just USAA, which is a lender and a bank to many people who work for the federal government, they said that they’ve had to provide $150 million in no interest loans to 4,500 people in just over 48 hours. That’s a cash crunch for a lot of people.
What’s happening in Connecticut?
REPRESENTATIVE JIM HIMES: So, I mean, I’ll tell you a Connecticut story. The day after the shutdown went into effect, I went up to see the National Guard at Windsor Locks Airport. We were deploying 500 Connecticut National Guard members to the Middle East. These were 22, 23-year-olds. None of them are wealthy. None of them are going to get paid on October 15th. And I heard the vice president on your show say that this is about the Democrats. The American people understand that the Republicans control the White House, they control the Senate, and they control the House. So, when the vice president of the United States is saying, this is all about Chuck Schumer, who the American people rejected in the last election, I think the American people see through that.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Well, the White House seems to be trying to take that issue off the table. The president posted on social media that they’re going to repurpose funds somehow to pay the military, at least for this pay cycle. Is that sustainable? Is that legal?
REPRESENTATIVE JIM HIMES: Well, probably not. Again, we just had a little conversation about the White House’s understanding of United States law, which is – which is – which is pretty tentative to say the best.
The speaker of the House, because I think to pay the military during a shut down, would require legislation. The speaker of the House has taken that off the table.
MARGARET BRENNAN: As it has in the past.
REPRESENTATIVE JIM HIMES: So, I mean, is Donald Trump going to say a bunch of stuff? Yes, he’s going to say a bunch of stuff. But I don’t see anything moving. The House, as Senator Murphy pointed out, the House is, you know, on vacation. So, no, I don’t see – think that that’s very likely.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Well, the speaker says if the government wasn’t shut down, the military would be getting a pay if Democrats voted for the short term funding bill. But no one’s working right now, as you just said.
We’ll have to continue to track this.
Thank you, Congressman Himes.
REPRESENTATIVE JIM HIMES: Thanks, Margaret.
MARGARET BRENNAN: We’ll be lack in a moment.
(ANNOUNCEMENTS)
MARGARET BRENNAN: That’s it for us today. Thank you all for watching. Until next week. For “FACE THE NATION,” I’m Margaret Brennan.
(ANNOUNCEMENTS)
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